I had an interesting discussion with a friend of mine who’s opinion I really respect recently about how I handle my archives for Sunday Soul . They were delighted that I have been so inspired by producing a weekly radio program, and appreciated my desire to archive the show, and share the files with people. But they asked me, “Sunshine, do you realize you are giving away more than 50 hours of your DJing for free?”
I smiled, and admitted that while I’ve never added it all up, I knew I was giving the archives away for free. Yes.
Essentially, the conversation presented the idea that by giving my hard work, the most intimate thing in my artistic life, away for free, and in such volume, that I am depreciating the value of what I do, what we all do, and also possibly making people feel that when I come to play somewhere, anywhere, there is no excitement, or less enthusiasm to come out and see me because you can hear me play anytime you want slouched in front of your laptop. You should have seen how tense I got in this very frank, and ernest conversation. I listened, and tried to take it all in rather than to reply or justify my current line of thinking. The final point they wanted to make is that my music, my themes, archives, singing, re editing, and passion are priceless, and wonderful. I was asked to consider charging a humble fee in order to download the back catalog of Sunday Soul… something like $1.00 USD for the most recent program which is posted the next day in the bottom portion of the bulletin board at Treehouse Muzique, and $1.99 for the exceptional shows which go into the selected archives at sundaysoul.com. Since then the conversation has not really ended in my mind.
Why am I “giving it away?”
I see the word of electronic music and dance parties right now as less about the music, less about the DJ and more about the event. We have, in many ways, come full circle and are revisiting a lot of what made the 1980’s no fun in my opinion. Floss and flash are the attraction, cocaine, alcohol, molding mudd and high heels have replaced flip flops and come as you are in a lot of larger clubs, and as much fun as that can be for people… it operates on the laws of diminishing return, and eventually without real support for the music, or the DJ setting the tone, it dies. Just like the 80’s over the topness simply flickered out. I don’t want too play tug-o-war with the past, or the future. I am a tweenie, not a baby boomer, and not a generation x’er either. I have grown up in the shadow of so many things, and just don’t take any inspiration from trying to revive the past, nor in marketing anything to anyone. I want to put the music which challenges me, that blows me away, that makes me dance out into the world, and with my personal approach to it. I hope that this music will thrive. Not just me, but everyone who makes it, loves it, feels it, and delights in the energy produced by it. To my mind we are in the heart of inspirational times, and the future is ours to carve, and sculpt however we want it to be. Will it be vinyl? Will it be local? Will it be virtual, global, visceral, cereberal? Will we do it ourselves? Will we pander to the main, and ask professionals to exploit us? I can’t really say what you’re going to do… but I am going to continue, and feel that putting it out there as openly, raw and honest is the only way to get things done.
What am I afraid of?
I’m afraid that by asking for a dollar, no one will listen at all. That something I spend so much time and effort, money, inspiration and effort producing… from the flyer to the last record I play… is precarious and delicate. So immediately I feel that I really should charge something for the fruit of my labor. It should take care of me in some fashion, even if it’s only a couple bucks to help pay the web hosting.
I think about the first mix tapes I bought in 1990 and remember paying $17 bucks for 90 minute cassette tapes of DJ’s mixing. I loved them. They shaped how I see the world today. and yet I am giving away 3 hour + sets every week, and feel guilty about asking for even a comment in return.
On the other hand, I feel like the show isn’t produced for profit. As I see it… it’s a seed planting effort. I want to invite everyone I can invite, and welcome them all to Sunday Soul, into my house and accept whoever chooses to say, or go. Admittedly House music is not for everyone in the first place, let alone my unique take on it. I accept that thousands come to check it out and dozens stick around and return from week to week. I am totally in support of organic development, and people giving themselves to what they love and neverminding the things which don’t inspire them… that’s how I want to live my life, and how I hope to thrive as an artist. I am not interested in pandering to anyone, or shifting what I do to “please” people. If I felt that way I never would have become interested in House… to my way of thinking that would have been like getting into poetry for the money.
So what am I going to do?
Dunnoe, but a piece of it was to try and state what it is that I’m thinking about here, in my personal space, for your consideration. How do you see it? What does it mean to you?
I’d love to have a dilaog about this with you.
21 Comments
On a bit of a parallel track over here. I’m not sure it translates to what you do, but perhaps we can glean insight from each other.
Like you, I give away a lot for free. My art, if you will (and on a good day it is an art) is writing/teaching/counseling. Beyond unbillable hours spent on the loathesome administriva required of any indie business, I give away a great deal of time. I provide one-on-one free consultations. I make expensive trips to deliver free classes. I write articles. I blog. Sure, some of that is considered marketing, but I tend to give more than most. Why?
Generosity. I want to help, inspire. I volunteer to be fully used by the universe as long as I shall walk the earth, and if there is a beyond, then count me in.
Yet a wise soul, who knows that I could be earning more (need to be, really) and observes me giving so much away without receiving said to me recently, “But the signal you’re putting out to the universe is that you don’t EXPECT to be paid, therefore–you aren’t.” Perplexing, as I practice letting go of expectations as a purification ritual. I’m still perseverating on this. Results would indicate that she is correct. Perhaps I’m going about this in a way that is less about generosity, and more about my inability to receive? I suppose the answer would be some sort of checking the scales of balance. I suck at balance, and don’t tend to seek that out as an ideal. *still perseverating* Thoughts?
One suggestion for you (easier than finding one for myself) is to point out the possibility for you to make listening to an online stream free. Then charge a fee for people that want to download and listen at their leisure or from their iPod. Best of both, yes?
I agree with Jaya, why not the best of both? Remember when you had it that you could only listen to the archive if you were logged onto Treehouse? It’s not like that anymore, is it? At least that way you were inviting people to be able to listen to the archive, letting them know it’s something close to your heart but also something that if you missed the live transmission that this was a special opportunity you were offering to them.
You are a generous soul.
Now that you do SIX hours of broadcast; 3 for us time zone propelled people on the east coast, and 3 for your long standing community on the west coast (and all other souls up at odd hours)…you are giving us all the opportunity to listen live and I am so glad…so you are already giving sooo much. I see nothing wrong with asking people for some sort of offering for the gift you are so openly giving to all. Get treehouse on the map with this, get people knowing they can also buy all of your other tracks there…it’s not greedy, it’s not taking away from the love, it’s allowing people to see the many wonderful things you are doing.
No one wants to struggle with money but even more, no one wants to feel like they are doing something that is not natural. All will fall into place and you will not struggle with these questions. Don’t question what you do…just be who you are.
I’ve been enjoying Sunday Soul ever since I first found out about it while doing a search after seeing you perform at Sublevel NYE 2006, I was also at the last Sublevel (which rocked btw!). I would glady “donate”, at least $20 for a years worth of Sunday Soul. I’ve never missed a show. I planned my sundays around the show!
Me too
: )
Interesting this conversation because a debate over a similar subject came up at my work today. I was, interestingly, on the side of “give it away” and my boss lady was on the side of “charge some dollars”.
In letting this settle in my head and now after reading your similar debate with yourself, I believe I have come up with some kind of conclusion.
The answer lies in what you think the ‘value’ of your product is. And if you think your work has value (which, by the way, yours absolutely does), then yes, you should set a fair price for someone else to have it for themselves.
So the question I am left with isn’t whether there should be a price for your valuable work, but rather, what is the fair price?
i think you have to make the decision as to whether or not you want to charge people for your archives, i don’t really have an opinion on that. you could always do what radiohead did and offer it at what the user wants to pay.
but i disagree with this completely:
possibly making people feel that when I come to play somewhere, anywhere, there is no excitement, or less enthusiasm to come out and see me because you can hear me play anytime you want slouched in front of your laptop.
It’s just two different sensations. i listen to sunday soul when i’m cooking and doing the dishes. and i listen to the archives because of the time difference. but if you came to london to play again, the sense of excitement is there because of the environment and my love of the dancefloor.
listening to a mixtape, or cd, or podcast is great, but it will NEVER replace the dancefloor.
From a practical standpoint, it would be very helpful to you if those who want the archives could help support you. It costs you time and money to create sunday soul, and even though you love it completely, and are extremely generous, the money coming in, would help to buy more music.
You are still sharing your love and being generous.
I agree wholeheartedly with susan on this:
sunshine,
i say you should do what you feel is right,
now i know sometimes that is difficult especially
when the heart says one thing and the mind another
(practical vs. emotional).
i think that paying for a dl archive of your show is a very
reasonable request, this is your trade, your art, your living not
a hobby on the side of a full time job.
if people don’t want to pay they can listen for free live ! you even offer
east and west coast broadcast’s to make sure everyone gets a chance.
this is amazing, you put so much work into your show. if people can’t listen to the free live broadcast’s but are interested in listening, love and respect what you do then why not pay for the archive that they can keep and listen to
forever whenever they want.
you know if someone’s really lazy they can always hijack your stream and even doing that takes a bit of time and preparation but that’s not the point here.
as for things changing on the live dj’ing front in the clubs and venues, i agree with you but if i think about it, it’s always been like that, people come people go as do the trends (music, clothing ect..) and revisiting or rehashing the past is not the way to go. with that i say keep doing what your doing stay fearless and play the music that moves you. keep working hard and you will be heard. there’s a lot of people out there that don’t get it but there’s an equal amount that do.
i also agree with susan’s comment about the dancefloor, there’s nothing better than being there live.
g.
my dream is to have a bunch of money so that i can open a space where people can come and see free dance performances. free performances of high quality. in this dream i’d also be able to afford to pay the artists. so, i’m with you on the concept that the last thing art needs is to be made an elitist ($$$$) sport, but artists still deserve a paycheck.
the annoying middle ground comes from public radio: pledge drive. the people who translate their appreciation to money give, and the people who don’t still listen but don’t buck up.
Well totally.
It is another topic entirely to consider how and where the arts should be placed in our society. I wholeheartedly agree that art, music, dance, and performance is something which we should have full and equal access to. Yet, we don’t live in a world which puts any serious premium on public domain, or public welfare. When things are placed into the private sector, even as a managed intermediary, they become ventures for profit, and profit motive. That changes everything entirely, how we value what is presented, and even who actually has access to it. Eventually it even seems to have perhaps the most profound effect on what is presented for free, or as a truly community event.
It all flows together somehow into this subject, but without endowments for the arts, or a public value or appreciation for presentation and performance, there needs to be some way to bring our various art forms to the forefront without the real nature of the work being compromised and constantly looming over our heads to ensure not only our own well being, but the continued existence of the arts at all.
But then again, if it weren’t a struggle or a sacrifice to act, or to sing, or to learn any of the disciplines, we might be looking at an entirely different world. I can’t say that one extreme or the other is any better.
well I’ll tell you this - you’re not getting my money! ha, ha.. ; )
People are still gonna listen slouched over their laptops whether you charge them for the privilege or not. So I wouldn’t really worry about that..
And the 80’s are still gonna suck, whether you charge people or not. The fact that I actually think the 80s were the single most inspiring decade of the last century musically (the birth of house music as just one example) has nothing to do with it either. ; ) So don’t worry about that..
And assuming you opted to charge, and people decided they didn’t wanna pay, you can simply go back to giving the archives away. So I wouldn’t worry about that either..
Having had the same conversation re: my show with many friends in the last couple of years I came to the conclusion that I shouldn’t/wouldn’t charge for the archives, it’s more hassle than i want to deal with, but that I should put a paypal donation option on the noisefromthevoid website if people wanna contribute financially to the upkeep of my show and it’s website. I just haven’t gotten around to it, but I think it’s a great alternate option..
Yeah, that seems like the only sensible alternative with regards to placing some sort of “value” in terms of commerce on the archives.
But don’t you think that’s a lot more weedy than simply charging like we do for CD’s or other “recordings?”
I mean, Jeno… I’ve spent something like $50 on your mix tapes alone. Not that that means you should buy my mp3’s (cause I’d give them to you if you wanted them) but my real sort of boggler here is why the f@#k is a crummy cassette tape worth $17 with a smile, and an mp3 that’s twice the length, and sounds much better not worth anything?
* spinning *
We live in an ‘on-demand’ world these days and ‘free’ podcasting is the norm.
What about making a 1 hour, edited version podcast available on a podcasting site for free via iTunes that people can subscribe to for free, and making the full, 3+ hour versions available through Treehouse for $1.00?
This way, those who want free can still get their Sunday Soul fix and the diehards who need that full weekly, Sunshine headfuck, can pay $1 and get off.
Food for thought.
so much has changed since the mix tape/CD industry rooled the 90’s. But truth is I never made much $$ from it anyways, that all came from gigging..
I still do business w/my old tapes/CD’s but almost completely for nostalgia’s sake. I have long since given up on the idea of making and selling new mix CD’s to folks. That way of doing things has [in my opinion] long since come and gone..
It’s now the era of the internet and free online music..
And I don’t lament that change. I’m down with it..
I’ve lost a way to make a few extra $$ BUT I’ve also found an oasis of inspiration. An oasis! The internet has brought so much music into my world that I wouldn’t have found otherwise..
And “weedy”? Not the prettiest flower in the garden, but definitely the strongest. What a great metaphor for surviving change, and for the nature of this industry we’re a part of. I’m down with the weeds! : ) ha, ha..
o.k, so I’m not really addressing your dilemna directly anymore, but I don’t think there is a right or wrong solution. This is a whole new era of experimentation. You just gotta try it out, or let it go. See what happens. Know what I mean?
I’d like to know more about what getting a dose of the “weekly sunshine headfuck” is all about…
hahahaha
In the weeds indeed.
: )
Well I do not think having archives up there will hurt your gigs at ALL. Some poster was correct above: We live in a new totally Internet based society now. It is so common place to post your mixes online whether it be a podcast or myspace or something.. It is like an internet business card that gets your foot in the door to MORE gigs IMHO.
Go on some myspace DJ pages. Half the comments are links to mixes, etc. It is just the way it is now. I look at my huge CD and Tape collection and wonder why i keep it… oh yeah I remember… cause converting those to MP3’s is a royal pain in the ass. lol.
If anything, put the paypal donate link up and let people make up their own minds…
Oh yeah, I’m with Jeno. I LOVED (L-O-V-E-D) the 80’s so don’t go bashing it!! :) he he he
c
I remember plunkin down 10-15$ for mix tapes/CDs at Primal, BPM, Amoeba, and Solid Grooves, etc - even into 2001 or so.
They were a big deal and helped me understand the music and mixing.
I know I put a lot of sweat and blood into some of my mix cds and never ever saw one penny, nor expected it. I just wanted to be like Garth and be asked to play at great parties.
So does it cheapin it that I can track down endless mixes for free? I have no clue because I’m not 20 years old and wide eyed anymore. I have a voracious appetite for music and don’t mind paying for quality. I appreciate my purchases and I appreciate the diamonds I find by the side of the road for free.
I definately value SundaySoul and its archives. Paying for those archives may make me more concious about consuming them. I might download less, and spend more time with the ones I bought. I secretly hope they stay free, but would continue supporting it.
I
secretlyhope they stay free too.: )
I am not planning to charge money. I just thought it was a very interesting subject, and from a dear and beloved source, so it was totally worth this protracted discussion.
Thank you.
hello,
i come to this converstion late in the game, and it looks like you’ve made the decision to not charge, which i respect. i really like the idea of having a paypal “donation” button, one for general donations for the upkeep of the site, streaming, etc., and specific “radiohead-like” options for individual archives for people to choose how much they wish to pay for your sunday soul. this way, it’s a complete sliding scale, people can pay as they wish and are able to, and there is no feeling of guilt/greed on your end, perhaps, for putting a value on your sunday souls. i agree w/ others that it is a priceless experience. i mean, the opportunity to chat in real time w/ an artist spinning amazing music, to hear him sing in response to his audience, is absolutely unique and beautiful. and yes, to experience it live is a whole other thing (which i hope will happen again soon!)
i wish you a rejuvenating and restful january. looking forward to the soul in feb. :)
peace and be free
a-HA! to charge or not to charge? What a question!
Well, I think you know what I think about the subject. Don’t charge! But I think you should take the suggestion as a major compliment, because whether or not you do charge, your work is DEFINITELY worth something!
I think a donation button is definitely a good idea. You could also look at asking for donations in-kind, such as if you have a listener or two who would be willing to set up a mirror and by so doing, save you some bandwidth. Another idea that I thought of was to allow direct downloads but charge for the podcast. The idea behind that is the same as subscribing to a free magazine. You could pick it up for free on your own but for a little money you get greater convenience.